On Steve Pynakker

Steve Pynakker is a popular YouTuber from Florida who does interviews with Mormons. He often presents as an evangelical (without qualification) in interfaith dialog with interlocutors of the Latter-day Saint movement. In light of his own words, I submit that Steve is not favorable to nor a faithful representative of evangelicalism.

“The evidence leans towards there not being a god.”

“There is very little about atheism that I actually disagree with. I call myself a pro-atheist evangelical… If we had to weigh all the evidence, we would have to say — just the physicality, the material of the universe, and everything that we know and see — we would have to say that the evidence leans towards there not being a god.” (February 23, 2024)

Creation is “really not that very well designed.”

“I don’t find Intelligent Design to be very compelling… The more complex something is, the less likely that it was created by a Creator… When we look at human biology, it’s a mess in here. It’s not very well designed. If we look at the creation, it’s really not that very well designed.” (February 23, 2024)

2023: “Half of [the churches I attend] are restorationist churches.”

“I’m kind of just doing my own thing. I don’t belong to a church. I do just attend different church services here and there. Half of them are restorationist churches…” (March 2, 2024)

2024: An LGBTQ-affirming church “checked all the boxes what I was looking for.”

“I go to the Harvest Church in Sarasota, Florida. And they’re an evangelical church. And apparently six months ago this church decided — this fairly large evangelical church, well established in the community — decided to become LGBTQ-affirming. But this church kind of checked all the boxes what I was looking for.” (November 27, 2023)

“The evangelical church has to die…”

After his pastor, Dan Minor, describes his journey to becoming LGBTQ-affirming (e.g. “I don’t believe the LGBTQ people are lost“), Steve says,

“This list, this vision I had. if you will, of this church and what it believes and what it stands for — I was, in my mind — thought that I’d have to build that church. But I found out that there that church has already existed. So a lot of what Dan said today resonates with me. The conversations we’ve had — we’ve had a few conversations with each other — I feel like this is kind of the evangelical church that I would like to see.

“You know, what you had mentioned about how the church needs to — like, basically — the evangelical church needs to die. And I tell people — even John Dehlin went to me — so the evangelical church — because I said, you know, the evangelical church is dying. You don’t realize it is dying. But our faith tradition has one key thing — important thing — to it. Is that we also believe in resurrection. So the evangelical church in America has to die in order for it to be resurrected to be actually be, to actually have a prophetic voice.” (February 27, 2024)

A commenter on this video writes, which Steve “hearted”:

“I am super impressed with your pastor. He has the spirit of Mormonism with him.”

“My biggest critics are evangelical apologists.”

“My biggest critics — this is what’s so funny — my biggest critics are evangelical apologists who are going after me. They’ve kind of quieted down because I think they realize that if they mess with me, it may not turn out well for them. Many of them are cowards and bullies. And I have probably spent more time calling out evangelical apologists than anybody.” (February 16, 2024)

“There are followers of Christ in every single religion.”

“There are followers of Christ in every single religion. In my mind, I feel like… there are Christian Mormons. There are Christian Jehovah’s Witnesses. There are Christian Catholics. There are Christian Muslims… and there might even be a few Christian evangelicals… If anybody goes to me and says, ‘I am a Christian’, I’m going to take them at their face value. Okay, you’re a Christian. I don’t care what you are—Orthodox Christian, Jehovah’s Witness—whatever. You you claim to be a Christian. Now, let me just see the fruits.” (March 28, 2024)

Agreeing with John Dehlin’s Pluralism

John Dehlin, a secular non-Christian, claims on Steve’s channel that people should be encouraged to believe in Christianity if it benefits them, even if it is not true:

“Whether or not that’s true, people need those types of feelings, whether in parental or familial form. And if that’s not there I’m glad there’s a theological form of providing that to people. Because people need it. And that’s not in a condescending way, like “this is all fairy tale make-believe, and if it gets you through the day, then fine, believe a fairy tale.” That’s not what I’m saying.

“What I’m saying is, if religion, if Christianity, if a belief in Jesus provides that, I’m glad people have that. I want people to have that. I want people to live their fullest, truest, healthiest, happiest life. Those are core needs.

“For me, the beauty and the power of Christianity is that it provides that for billions of people, and I’m glad because if they don’t have that and they can’t find something else, then things don’t look good for a lot of people. To just feel like, “I’m worthless. Why am I here? Nobody loves me. Nobody cares. There’s no one to help me”—that’s not good.

“That’s why I never have called myself an atheist or an agnostic. I’m not here to take away whatever gets someone through the day, and if it gets them through the day and, as a bonus, makes them a good, positive, healthy, serving person, do it. Believe it. Follow it. It’s good. You know what I’m saying? It’s good.”

Steve responds,

“And I agree with you.” (March 10, 2023)

“You can embrace this document.”

“We’re going on 200 years of Evangelical persecution of the Restoration… I like to tell it to those evangelicals who are in my audience — I’d like to tell them that the most — one of the most Christian books ever written on American soil was the Book of Mormon. And I talked about this last time in the last rally — is that it is a thoroughly Christian document. That as a Protestant charismatic Spirit-filled Christian, you can embrace this document.” (June 9, 2023)

“I would feel bad if somebody left the LDS Church because of my channel.”

“I would feel bad if somebody left the LDS Church because of my channel. That’s where I’m at. Because I’m really not trying to proselytize. All I’m trying to do is just talk about my personal faith and also having a personal relationship with Jesus… I don’t care what building you go to on Sunday morning.” (April 22, 2022)

“People who leave Mormonism become atheists… because of evangelicals.”

“I feel that that the main one of the main reasons people who leave Mormonism become atheists is because of evangelicals we need to own that that.” (February 7, 2023)

“Mormonism saved my life.”

“I am a product of the Book of Mormon and I’m a product of the Restoration. And… it’s had a major impact and influence on my life. I’d be a completely different person if it wasn’t for Joseph Smith and Mormonism. Mormonism saved my life. and so… I nobody can take that away from me.” (February 7, 2024)

Doctrine of hell needs to be “put in the dustbin of history.”

In the context of deriding various evangelical views of hell:

“‘Hey, I got good news for you! We’re going to expand monotheism to the rest of the world, make you accountable for hearing the message of Jesus, and if you reject that message you’re going to suffer eternal damnation.’

“In some cases these people believe that even if you’ve never even heard of Jesus you’re going to burn in hell… That’s just a form of Christianity that I think needs to be put in the dustbin of history. I think the I think 21st century Christianity needs to move on from that.” (October 4, 2024)

“We all worship a different Jesus.”

LDS apologist David Snell asks Steve:

“We get a lot of pushback from other Christians saying, ‘Oh, you guys worship a different Jesus.’ What’s your response to that? Would you agree or would you kind of roll your eyes?”

Steve then gives a number arguments for why Christians should not say that Mormons worship a different Jesus.

“I always tell people we all worship a different Jesus. Because everybody has a different relationship with Jesus. He plays a different role in all of our lives. No two Jesus are exactly the same because we all have kind of a different walk, right? Because he’s with us where we’re at; he fulfills the role that we need from him.” (March 21, 2023)

Unity in one Jesus vs. religious pluralism

Christians do not each have their own different Jesus. Precisely because Christians have the same Jesus, we are called to be “eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.” (Ephesians 4:3). Paul explains:

“There is one body and one Spirit… one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4-6)

This common Lord that Christians worship is the ground of the (c)atholic (i.e. universal) faith. This is why Christians can say with the Nicene Creed:

“We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father.” (Nicene Creed)

This creed which Mormonism says is “abominable” is instead a balm of unity for Christians. It reminds Christians of our common confession and our common Christ. Whereas Mormonism says we can’t have the gift of the Holy Ghost apart from belonging to LDS Church, Christians are instead comforted with the indwelling gift of the same Spirit. The Trinity that Joseph Smith said is a “monster” is instead for Christians an adorable mystery, and the source of all our joy and common fellowship.

Mormonism has divorced itself from Christianity, its creeds, and the Trinity. Gordon B. Hinckley was once asked about those outside the LDS Church who say Mormons “do not believe in the traditional Christ.” He answered: “No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.” I couldn’t agree more.

Genuine interfaith dialog vs. pluralistic confusion

Fascination with the Mormon community has a limited place. But it is inappropriate apart from an explicit desire to see Mormons repent of Mormonism. Christians pray for Mormons to be saved out of Mormonism, and to be rescued into a relationship with the Biblical Jesus.

Gentle video interviews with Mormons also have their place. But the way we guide the conversation and our choice of questions should make it obvious that our ultimate agenda is contrastive and evangelistic, not ecumenical (2 Corinthians 4:1-2).

Religious pluralism finds a more common home in progressive LGBTQ-affirming churches like Harvest Church of Sarasota, Florida (Steve’s church). But such pluralism is off the table for Christians. We serve one Lord Jesus. “If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ” (Galatians 1:10).

Response To Steve Pynakker’s Interview With Kaï Vân Lëuven

March 27, 2025

Kaï Vân Lëuven released an interview with Steve Pynakker on March 26, 2025. I’d like to respond to parts of it here.

Steve is a popular YouTuber who identifies as an evangelical in dialog with Latter-day Saints. The interview follows the release of a few articles (one by me) objecting to Steve’s unqualified descriptor of “evangelical.” The category of “evangelical” should not allow, I contend, for an affirmation of same-sex marriage, or advancing the notion that “the evangelical church needs to die.” Such positions are strange to evangelical ears but are common to progressive deconstructionism.

Steve knows that progressivism is seen by evangelicals as heretical. He wants to employ its ideas without using the label:

“Once you label somebody a progressive, you’re basically saying, they’re really not a Christian. So we don’t have to deal with that. I’m like, no, I’m not putting that label on me because I am not a progressive. I’ve never said that I am one.”

But the absence of the descriptor does not negate the description. Steve says himself in the interview,

“I come with this, with the deconstructed lens of Christianity. And that still very much influences my worldview.”

Philosophy of language

One background issue in the interview is the philosophy of language. Should we insist on the use of words to reveal meaning, or should we be content with the superficial use of words to conceal meaning?

We are told that there is “nothing in the Apostles’ Creed that Latter-day Saints would disagree with.” But this shows a willingness to settle for superficial agreement. What do “Father Almighty” and the “forgiveness of sins” mean? Evidently, meaning does not matter.

The proper celebration of creeds depends on shared meaning. The Nicene Creed of 325, later expanded in 381, became necessary because the Arians and Eunomians hid behind the language of Scripture. They used the surface of scripture to conceal a meaning which they otherwise ascribed. But Christians refused to settle for merely semantic agreement. In the creeds, they sought to unpack the meaning and implication of scripture. This is a wonderful Christian heritage.

A “clean break” from historic Christianity

Steve instead seeks a clean break from all the

“institutional and historical and theological things from the past. Let’s build something different for the future.”

He says, “I’ve been able to make a clean break from all of the traditions and all the doctrines of men and all the theology and all the things that caused the Christians to battle each other through all these years.” He claims that first century Christians were “at best” adherents of binitarianism, and that the Trinitarian creeds should not be used for boundary maintenance.

“Fringy” gatekeeping

Steve insists that many Mormons are “like-minded people who share many of the same values, who all testify and confess with their mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord.” He celebrates that Mormon apologist Jacob Hanson “has gone on my podcast and on his own podcast and said, yes, I’ve said the sinner’s prayer.” There is a “whole other side to the restoration that is really remarkable. These are people that love Jesus, man.”

Though we have “disagreements about the nature of God”, and “about even, you know, what happens in eternity”, we should consider such issues — even those taught by Joseph Smith himself — to be mere “speculations”. Here Steve employs a common Mormon term that is dismissive of LDS prophetic and apostolic tradition. After all, “throughout the centuries Christians have had different speculations.” And “none of us can tell… for sure, what eternity looks like.”

Those who would question this line of thinking are “the most fringy people that have decided they’re going to be gatekeepers.” Steve remarks, “I think it’s way above our pay grade to be these gatekeepers, to determine who’s in and out, who’s an evangelical, who’s a Christian.” Steve expresses agnosticism over who is not a Christian, though he expresses jocular cynicism over evangelicals, in a “village… on fire”, joking that few are truly Christian.

Faithful responses from Kai

There were beautiful moments in the interview where Kaï Vân Lëuven gave faithful responses to Steve. While Steve says he doesn’t care where people go to church, Kai expressed a desire for Mormons to know the real Jesus:

“As I see people walk into a Mormon church, those people are learning a different message of who God is and who they are in relation to God… I do think that environment is important, right? I think a Bible-believing church is where people should be—where all people should be… And I think that’s really where, you know, we’re going to probably split on this discussion… If you love people, you speak something into them that is helpful and that will push them in a direction that is knowing the real Jesus.”

Following a progressive motif of heaping guilt upon evangelicals for the sins of past generations, Steve insists that evangelicals today should “own the whole thing” of Mormonism. We should apologize for the words of the Presbyterian minister who spoke to Joseph Smith’s family about the eternal destiny of their son Alvin.

“That’s why evangelicals have to own this whole thing… That’s one of the points where Mormonism began, was those words of that Presbyterian minister.”

Kai boldly responds,

“I don’t think that people now pay for the past sins of other people… I don’t believe that the Christian church owes anything to anyone for something that was said 200 years ago.”

Steve:

“I disagree with that.”

Kai:

“You think that there is some penitence that has to be paid by the Christian church for what was said 200 years ago? … I don’t think that you can look at… a wrong of [the] past and say that’s a justification for what is happening right now. And say, this is my get out of jail free card to say, well, it’s okay that this injustice is still happening now because of this wrong that I experienced 200 years ago.

“I believe that the Mormon church and the Mormon leadership has wronged me of years of my life… I’m not looking for an apology from them. My justice comes from the Lord… That’s who rains down judgment on people preaching false doctrine.”

Pander-slander

Kai later brings up Fred Anson’s charge of using the “pander-slander” method. Ron Huggins once critically describes this strategy of generating interfaith dialog:

“If you want to pander to the Mormon apologists not ready for real dialogue, the cost is going to be a willingness to slander the Christian brethren that went before you.”¹

Kai asks,

“Is there an idea of pandering and slandering? Is there this idea that in order to get access I have to kind of say, ‘On this Christian world, we’re also confused on this,’ which is kind of beating down Christianity in a way, right? … Like, you kind of beat something down to gain access. And then once you have that access, you can have a dialogue…”

“Is there a point, though, where you have to sacrifice some of your core beliefs in order to minister in that world? … I think to have people in the middle can really muddy the water, as opposed to having this clean break from, ‘This is a different gospel.’ … ‘This is a different Jesus.’ … That makes a really clean break for who God is and who we are, right, in relation to him.”

Steve responds:

“I’m patterning myself after Paul by having these conversations. I think I’m very Pauline in that way… You do realize that Paul quoted from a pagan poet about a pagan god… He’s literally taking pagan poetry and putting it in the Bible. Can you imagine if Christian apologists were using pagan sources to bolster their belief system today?”

Steve alludes to Paul’s sermon at Areopagus, but the parallel is tenuous. After Paul quotes pagan poetry to form a communicative bridge, he quickly makes a clear contrast between the God of all creation and false gods. Paul concludes the sermon with, “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30). Instead of affirming the Athenians in their idolatry, Paul calls them out of it. Instead of receiving approbation, Paul saw a mix of mockery and genuine repentance.

Kai describes such repentance and transformation powerfully at work in his life:

“You said [Jacob Hansen] said the sinner’s prayer. For me, when I did that and I gave my life to Christ, everything changed for me. It wasn’t… nominal… It was, Jesus, I give everything to you, everything. My goals, my ambitions, my theology of my past, all of that gets laid down. And I walk a completely different life after that… I think that your theology changes, your lifestyle changes, you start to see the… you start to heal, right? I think that it should make you say, ‘I reevaluate my theology’, because I’m putting Jesus so much higher. I reevaluate the false things that I’ve been taught in my life. And I’m willing to sacrifice those to follow Jesus.”

Steve expresses resignation that people stay in the LDS Church. “The Church ain’t going anywhere.” Instead of calling people to exit, he suggests that we should seek gradual reforms. “Why don’t we make it a safer space for them as well by advocating positive changes?”

Kai hopes and prays for something much greater: the radical work of God in producing repentance:

“I believe that a massive theological change can happen in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They can put away all of those old doctrines, everything that is taught in the temple, and they can just follow Jesus. And they can know who he really is. 17 million people worshipping the one true God. I believe that that is really what could happen, and nothing is greater than what the Lord could do in that perspective. And I would hope that that really happens.”

Boundary maintenance and genuine dialog

There are two strategies in conflict: either blur the lines and abandon historic Christian convictions as a strategy for making inroads into interfaith dialog, or maintain boundaries and historic Christian beliefs while seeking genuine interfaith dialogue.

I call the latter “hard mode.” It keeps the “inter” in interfaith. It stays curious, but faithful; kind, but critical (2 Timothy 2:22-25). It doesn’t demonize, but it recognizes that the lost are in a satanic snare (2 Timothy 2:26). It takes “pleasure in understanding” (Proverbs 18:2), and yet also seeks to “take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ” (2 Corinthians 10:5). It offers no concessions on behalf of Christ: he requires full surrender. We plead with Paul,

“We are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.” (2 Corinthians 5:20)

Our cards are to be kept face-up. “No poker evangelism,” as one friend put it. If we blur the lines, we become sycophantic. It becomes ingratiating “intra”-faith dialogue, and we celebrate false wins. But if we maintain our convictions, we can more genuinely seek to establish relationships, evangelistic opportunities, and interfaith dialog with our lost neighbors.

Matthew 18 and the local church

Steve seems fundamentally opposed to historic Christian gatekeeping. I agree that we cannot make final, infallible divine judgments—only God can. Neither should we make flippant evaluations, even when provisional. But boundary maintenance is part of the charter of the Christian church.

In the interview Steve alludes to Matthew 18 and identifies the gathered church in ad hoc meetings between believers. He equates the very podcast interview as itself “having church.”

“The Bible tells us, where two or more [are] gathered in my name. So he said, so when the two of you are together, that’s church service. That’s church. So you and I having this conversation, we’re having church right now. That’s what the church is to me.”

The very context of Matthew 18:15-20 expects the church to do some gatekeeping. Jesus describes a protocol of increasing escalation of confrontation that eventually arrives, if necessary, at excommunication.

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

The context assumes that all parties belong to a faithful local Christian church, which itself has the binding and loosing power of gatekeeping the visibly gathered communities of the kingdom of God.² This is not an ad hoc rendezvous over coffee. Such a church has identifiable, regular, governed gatherings that are organized enough to recognize leadership and implement, in a church-wide coordinated way, church discipline.

This is precisely why I insisted earlier that Steve, a public figure representing himself as an evangelical in dialog with Mormons, identify the local church to which he is attached. This at least functions as a heuristic for one’s allegiance and belief. Christian representatives are not meant to fly solo. We are not called to be lone rangers. We are called to speak in unity with the Christian church, not call for its destruction and progressive reconstitution.

Lord, have mercy

May the Lord soften Steve’s heart to the authority of Christ, the beauty of creation, scripture, the gathered church, and the rich Christian tradition of defending basic Christian beliefs. Steve, I invite you to have a public interfaith dialog with me, each of us informally representing categorically different spiritual communities with divergent attitudes toward historic and biblical Christianity.

References

An Appeal for Authentic Evangelical-Mormon Dialogue. ↩︎
I have written more about this here: Where Two or Three Are Gathered in My Name, October 12, 2020. ↩︎